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Picking the collective brain

Was chatting with [info - personal] renay about fandom stuff, and we got to wondering something that really requires the collective consciousness of fandom. So, have a poll.

Do you consider FFX and FFX-2 to be a single fandom or two separate fandoms?

One fandom
20(66.7%)
Two fandoms
10(33.3%)

FF.net splits FFX and FFX-2 into separate, unrelated categories. If you were to post a story including both FFX-only and X-2 only characters, which category would you put it in?

FFX
1(3.2%)
FFX-2
7(22.6%)
It depends on who the main character/pairing is
20(64.5%)
It depends on another factor which I will explain in comments
3(9.7%)

If you were in an archive with one category named FFX, would you expect to find and/or feel comfortable posting FFX-2 fic there?

Yes
23(74.2%)
No
6(19.4%)
It depends, and I will explain why in comments
2(6.5%)

If you were in an archive with one category named FFX/X-2, would you expect to find and/or feel comfortable posting FFX fic that disregards X-2 canon there?

Yes
28(90.3%)
No
3(9.7%)
It depends, and I will explain why in comments
0(0.0%)

Do you consider FFVII Compilation to be a single fandom or a collection of separate fandoms?

One fandom
17(56.7%)
Multiple fandoms
12(40.0%)
Something else which I will explain in comments
1(3.3%)

Do you consider "Ivalice Alliance" to be one fandom or multiple fandoms?

One fandom
4(13.3%)
Each game is a separate fandom
10(33.3%)
The XII games are one fandom and the Tactics games are another
10(33.3%)
The XII games are one fandom, but the Tactics games are separate fandoms
5(16.7%)
The Tactics games are one fandom, but the XII games are separate fandoms
0(0.0%)
Something else which I will explain in comments
1(3.3%)

Which of these fandoms do you consider yourself to be part of? (just for informational purposes)

Final Fantasy
2(6.5%)
FFVII (any or all)
1(3.2%)
FFX and/or FFX-2
2(6.5%)
FFXII (any or all)
0(0.0%)
FF Tactics (any or all)
0(0.0%)



Please spread this one far and wide; I want as broad a sampling as possible. Also, my standard disclaimer: I welcome open and honest discussion, but I request that you not flame FFX-2 in comments -- flawed or no, I happen to be quite fond of it, so if anyone comes out with the burning hatred, the conversation isn't going to get very far. Thanks.

Comments

lassarina
Oct. 17th, 2009 07:07 pm (UTC)
HA HA HA I will now run my mouth forever.

My opinion on FFX and FFX-2 is the same as my opinion on FFXII and FFXII RW: the first game I listed in each case is the "primary fandom" and the second game is "canon extension," but they are still THE SAME FANDOM.

Additionally, this is more or less my opinion on FF7 Complication. FF7 is the main canon; AC, BC, CC, and DoC are all extensions of the canon, making it one giant-ass fandom that hopefully people will tag with whatever specific canon extension they are wanking on this week. (Yeah, my opinion of FF7 Complication, not high.)

That being said! While Vagrant Story, FF Tactics, Tactics Advance, and TA2 are all part of the "Ivalice Alliance," I consider each and every one of them to be SEPARATE FANDOMS, as they have few to no characters in common with FFXII/RW (TA2 has some cameos, but it's kind of like how I don't consider FF Tactics part of the FF7 canon despite cameos by Cloud and Aeris, you know?)

This disjointed commentary brought to you by someone who plays WAY TOO FUCKING MANY of these games.
darcenciel
Oct. 17th, 2009 08:35 pm (UTC)
I agree with the above....and what you said about the Ivalice Alliance is also my basic feeling on the upcoming FFXIII compilation - while they all have the FFXIII name, the stories are completely different with dissimilar characters.

I guess it is the characters that really sell me on whether I consider something the "same" fandom or different ones...

tl;dr I agree with lassarina
owlmoose
Oct. 18th, 2009 03:10 am (UTC)
I think you definitely have something there, about how sharing characters makes different games into a single fandom, but just sharing a world does not.

It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out with FF13. I think you're likely right, assuming the games are as unrelated as the advance publicity has made them out to be.
ovo_lexa
Oct. 17th, 2009 08:49 pm (UTC)
^ What she said.
heyheyrenay
Oct. 18th, 2009 12:24 am (UTC)
I am probably still going to put FFVII under the "Compilation" umbrella title. I think it makes more sense since there are so many canons and people have a terrible habit of tagging with "ffvii" for ALL of them, so maybe having the compilation term will help them...focus?

(I HAVE NO CLUE WHAT TO DO WITH TACTICS, HOSHIT.)
lassarina
Oct. 18th, 2009 10:04 am (UTC)
THAT'S OKAY I obsess about Tactics. ♥ Happy to yammer about them.

I think, also, since the FFVII games are all bunched neatly in a small timeline (what, under 20 years?) with the same characters and settings - i.e., there's continuity - that it's fair to have an FF7 Compilation fandom with tags for the individual Complications.

However, just to break out the Ivalice Alliance a little further, you've got:

Vagrant Story which despite taking place in Ivalice has pretty much zero explicit links to the other games (a few name-references pop up in FFXII, like Drace's last name and the Leamonde Entites in the Nabreus Deadlands, but otherwise, totally independent.)

Final Fantasy XII

Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings which is an explicit sequel to FFXII, featuring many of the main cast, and therefore in my head goes in an umbrella with FFXII proper

Final Fantasy Tactics/Final Fantasy Tactics: The War of the Lions (same game, latter is a re-release) which takes place in Ivalice about 500 years after FFXII, but does not share any settings with FFXII. Also, the only character it shares with FFXII is Balthier and he's a cameo. (Other cameos include Cloud and Aeris, and I refuse to countenance any argument that says this makes Tactics part of the FF7 Complication, as well as Luso, the hero of FFTA2 (which makes no sense as he should've been dead 500 years by TA2 chronology--but again, cameo.) Many of the Espers that appear in other Ivalice Alliance games make appearances in FFT.

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance has few links to the rest of Ivalice beyond taking place "in Ivalice;" those links consist of the names of Espers (which link up to those in FFT/FFXII) and Montblanc the Moogle (I'm guessing Moogles just live a really long time.)

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance 2, like TA, has only a few links to the rest of Ivalice. It has cameos from Al-Cid, Vaan, and Penelo (as well as Montblanc), and has a tenuous link to TA (via one character). Other than that...nothin'.
auronlu
Oct. 18th, 2009 02:27 am (UTC)
I like Lassarina's idea of "Primary canon" and "extensions". Except when they're hair extensions.

Also I don't know anything about FFXII tactics and little to nothing about RW. So I'm not qualified to judge. Except from what I gather, RW is a sequel, so I think of it like X-2 and AC.

When the sequel games first came out, I'd put the sequels in a separate category for all those folks who haven't played them or are of two minds about whether they fit. As time goes on and less is being written for older fandoms, I say fuse 'em, and just indicate in summary or characters whether it's "classic" mode (the original game) or "extended edition".

I've gotten more used to X2 as an extension of FFX. Originally I might've viewed them as separate fandoms.
owlmoose
Oct. 18th, 2009 03:19 am (UTC)
Interesting point, for sure, that these things may change over time. I wonder, for example, if we see the FFVII fandom mellow out on this score once new material stops appearing. (If it ever does...)

Personally I have always thought of it as one canon, and I was surprised to find two separate categories on FF.net. I never cross-posted DSHnD to The Pit for a few reasons, but my major issue was having no idea where to put it.
auronlu
Oct. 18th, 2009 07:09 am (UTC)
I was naughty with LHAD for a while: I'd post it in FFX for a while, then switch it to FFX-2 to grab those fans when I started adding in the Crimson Squad, but now I've settled it in FFX for good. As time goes on, I'm starting to see more X-2 stuff appearing in the FFX category for the same reason.

I tried to make sure I mentioned Baralai in my summary to make it clear I've got a few X2 characters in secondary roles, but it's hard to cram in a cast list in a 240 char summary.
owlmoose
Oct. 18th, 2009 10:42 pm (UTC)
I think LHAD fits much more as FFX, given that it goes AU before most of the events of X-2, and the primary characters (Auron, Lulu, and Isaaru) are much more connected with FFX, and that's where I would have put it, based on the "main characters/pairings" rubric.
lassarina
Oct. 18th, 2009 10:07 am (UTC)
If you like the layered politics sort of thing in FFXII, you would very likely enjoy Final Fantasy Tactics: the War of the Lions, whose plot and characters were designed by the same guy (Matsuno, who also did Vagrant Story.) It's a grid-based strategic game (no button mashing whatsoever) and even if you suck at strategy like I do, it is totally possible to level grind until all the plot battles roll over and beg for mercy.
owlmoose
Oct. 18th, 2009 03:23 am (UTC)
I was hoping you would weigh in, since you have played all (or nearly all) the games and have been at least peripherally involved in so many FF fandoms. :) I see your point about Tactics being different from the other compilation fandoms. Are they spread out over a long period of time? It might be somewhat analogous to the connection between FFVII and FFX, which is so tenuous and over such a huge time span that I don't think anyone would ever seriously argue that they could be the same fandom.
lassarina
Oct. 18th, 2009 09:57 am (UTC)
I think the only ones I'm missing at this point are Crisis Core (which is on the shelf waiting) and the various Crystal Chronicles, so...yeah. XD

Tactics Advance and TA2 both say they take place in Ivalice, but share no settting places at all with FFXII, FF Tactics, or Vagrant Story. (For that matter, no place-names in FFT match up to FFXII, and there are only the most tenuous of connections between the two; FFT is set 500 years after FFXII and has one character with the same surname as Balthier, and heavily features the Glabados Church which is only vaguely referenced in FFXII.) A few FF12 characters make cameos in FFTA2 (Vaan, Penelo, Montblanc, and Al-Cid), while two FFTA characters make cameos in FFTA2 (Montblanc and Mewt.) While the connections are definitely there, I'd say they're too tenuous to consider it even an umbrella fandom. (The main link between FFTA, FFTA2, and FFT is the battle system, anyway.)

I wasn't even aware there WAS a link between FF7 and FFX compilations. I know FFX is the only other game to feature the Magus Sisters from FF4, but I wouldn't say that connects the canons.
owlmoose
Oct. 18th, 2009 11:52 am (UTC)
In X-2 Ultimania, Kazushige Nojima (writer of X-2) said that he intended the character of Shinra in FFX-2 to be the direct ancestor of the founder of the Shinra Electric Power Company. There are a few hints in X-2 that Shinra and Rin have been working together to tap the Farplane as a source of energy -- ie. mako energy. Here's the interview:

http://www.willamette.edu/~ejohnson/nojima.htm

It sounds like it's basically Nojima's headcanon, so it's not really official. But it's still interesting. The funny thing for me is that, the first time we played the game, T kept calling Shinra a spy. I hadn't played FFVII at that point, so I didn't get the reference to Reeve, but I kept insisting that it was just a in-joke name. But given this information, T may have been more right about that than I was! ;)

Edited at 2009-10-18 03:54 pm (UTC)
lassarina
Oct. 18th, 2009 01:22 pm (UTC)
Ahhhh, I see. XD Oh, Square. PUBLISH ULTIMANIA HERE. rar.

That's funny, that T kept calling him a spy. I approve. XD

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